tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post8290824572159502851..comments2024-03-16T11:51:28.412-04:00Comments on CHA DAO: Perspectives on Storing and Aging Pu'er Teas (ii)coraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03645573592247798140noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-60334637708773091702008-09-12T16:02:00.000-04:002008-09-12T16:02:00.000-04:00Hi Phyll,Thanks for the tasting notes!There are se...Hi Phyll,<BR/>Thanks for the tasting notes!<BR/>There are several indications if the tea has been pre-oxidized, but none really conclusive because other factors can also display similar manisfestions.<BR/>One is the colour of the liquor, which, compared to another tea from the same period, would be darker. This is more apparent when the tea is young, as we know from experience most young puer is pale or yellow in colour, and turning darker as it ages. A pre-oxidized pu'er would be much darker than its peers, usually a rich orange when young. However, as the teas age, different storage, different climate, etc, may affect the tea colour; so if the Lao Chen De Cha Bu Lang is dry sored while the Ji Pin is humidly stored, the brews may turn out differently.<BR/>Second is the taste of the tea. Young pre-oxidized puer in my tasting, appears to be more mellow and richer in texture than its peers in the first few brews, and then that 'young puer' notes come back in later brews. Over time however, in different climate and storage conditions, the puers might just match up.<BR/>Third is the leaves. The brewed pre-oxidized leaves are mostly redder than its peers when newly produced. Unintentionally pre-oxidized is usually shown on the leaf's edge and stalk, while intentional pre-oxidation is shown on 3/4 or entire leaf. Again over time, with different conditions and storage, this distinction can be blurred between puers.<BR/>But I think the most important tell-tale signs are in your own tasting: plummy and astringent...if we are on the same tasting profile, these are notes belonging to a much older tea than its 3 years of age. Even by comparison to the Ji Pin.<BR/>:"D<BR/><BR/>dannyDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06902866803320048942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-53208621193510597892008-09-10T02:28:00.000-04:002008-09-10T02:28:00.000-04:00Hi Danny,I've been drinking Lao Chen De Cha for th...Hi Danny,<BR/><BR/>I've been drinking Lao Chen De Cha for the past 3 days and I think it's good tea. It's strikingly different from the <I>Yichanghao Jipin</I> in that the LCDC tastes more like a classic raw pu'er: plummy, still astringent, good chayun and huigan. The qi for me is calming and relaxing, yet reviving, too. (I'm drinking it as I'm writing this, and I could feel my whole body warming up slowly...building up. Nice).<BR/><BR/>In regard to pre-oxidation...to be honest, I'm not sure what telltale signs to look for. I do notice that the color of the dry leaves are about the same green-red hue as the <I>Ji Pin</I>, and the color of the liquor is deep orange. Yet its taste is that of the usual (good) pu'er. What am I supposed to be looking for to know that the tea received pre-oxidation treatment?<BR/><BR/>I think I'd give this a shot by getting a few more cakes for storage. Thanks for the recco.<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/><BR/>Phyll~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-77701008406568095532008-09-06T16:56:00.000-04:002008-09-06T16:56:00.000-04:00Hi again,No apology was necessary. Whether or not...Hi again,<BR/><BR/>No apology was necessary. Whether or not it's a YCH brand, I was certain that you were referring to this particular tea.<BR/><BR/>Will do a tasting during this week-end and share with you my experience.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Phyll~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-25830009174717711282008-09-06T15:25:00.000-04:002008-09-06T15:25:00.000-04:00Hi phyll,Sorry, you are right. It is Yi Chang Hao...Hi phyll,<BR/><BR/>Sorry, you are right. It is Yi Chang Hao Lao Chen De Cha! I dragged out my stack of the cakes to inspect and found, written on the outside, "Bu Lang, Yi Chang Hao"; inside on the wrapper was also printed "Yi Chang Hao".<BR/><BR/>I checked and was told that as this was the first production of Lao Chen De Cha brand, they probably wanted it to ride on the more established Yi Chang Hao before branching it as a separate brand.<BR/><BR/>dannyDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06902866803320048942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-29976285097351440862008-09-06T15:06:00.000-04:002008-09-06T15:06:00.000-04:00Hi phyll,That's the cake, but it is not under Yi C...Hi phyll,<BR/><BR/>That's the cake, but it is not under Yi Chang Hao brand. It is under "Lao Chen De Cha" (Old Chen's Tea) brand. This is the first cake produced under this brand name.<BR/><BR/>Do write about your tasting experience on chadao!<BR/><BR/>dannyDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06902866803320048942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-43183788707611027982008-09-05T15:17:00.000-04:002008-09-05T15:17:00.000-04:00Danny, hi. You may be right. I was quoting Houde...Danny, hi. You may be right. I was quoting Houde's site since they sell it as a Yichanghao brand. It's this one:<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/66uelh<BR/><BR/>Coincidentally, the USPS box containing the said tea has just arrived as I'm writing this.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-75076579849527877792008-09-05T11:21:00.000-04:002008-09-05T11:21:00.000-04:00Hi phyll,"Lao Chen De Cha" and "Yi Chang Hao" are ...Hi phyll,<BR/><BR/>"Lao Chen De Cha" and "Yi Chang Hao" are two different brands under the Chang Tai group. I may be wrong but I don't think there was a Yi Chang Hao Lao Chen De Cha...<BR/><BR/>dannyDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06902866803320048942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-71659540319766557052008-09-02T19:30:00.000-04:002008-09-02T19:30:00.000-04:00Thank you for the explanation, Danny.Coincidentall...Thank you for the explanation, Danny.<BR/><BR/>Coincidentally, I recently tasted a 2005 Yichanghao "Ji Pin" with leaves that may had been partially oxidized.<BR/><BR/>Also, I was able to obtain a beeng of the 2005 Yichanghao "Lao Chen De Cha". Will be interesting to compare it with the "Ji Pin".~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-78113734963139682222008-08-31T12:58:00.000-04:002008-08-31T12:58:00.000-04:00Hi Phyll,Sorry for not replying earlier...Fa Jiao ...Hi Phyll,<BR/>Sorry for not replying earlier...<BR/>Fa Jiao (发酵)in Chinese encompasses a wider meaning than microbial/fungi activity on the leaves, it can also be used to indicate oxidation, though Yang Hua (氧化)should be the correct term...so...<BR/>It was not unusual for the plucked leaves to undergo some amount of oxidation prior to being processed into maocha - many of the traditional methods involved some amount of oxidation - whether accidental or intentional.<BR/>Some producers also subject maocha to some extent of fermentation before pressing them into cakes.<BR/>Then of course, there is the post-production fermentation that we are more familiar with.<BR/>All three types (there may be more, but this is what I know so far...) of Fa Jiao all produce different tasting puer.<BR/>Many connoisseurs claim that if a young puer turns a bright orange at third or fourth brew, chances are the leaves have been oxidized before processing into maocha. Likewise, if a young puer brews up bright to dark orange in the first and/or second brew, it is most likely fermented at maocha stage.<BR/>As for brew color of post-production fermentation, we are familiar with the typical Hongkong storage.<BR/>How true is this claim, I cannot tell, I'm also learning. But one thing I do realize is this: between leaves from old trees and those from plantations, the brews do not hold out for long on oxidation and pre-pressing fermentation on plantation leaves. They usually give up their ghosts by the fourth brew, while old tree leaves tend to offer nice brews even till the tenth round.<BR/>Post-production fermentation on the other hand, gives plantation leaves a mellower tasting puer, but completely wastes a puer processed from old tree leaves.<BR/>Back to Chang Tai. I have not tasted all of Chang Tai's 2004 and thereafter products, so I can't provie you with a complete list of their teas...you might want to check the market for their 2005's Old Chen's Bu Lang Cake (Lao Chen De Cha - Bu Lang 老陈的茶-布朗). I find this tea to have undergone some oxidation on the plucked leaves...but then, I may be wrong...<BR/>:"P<BR/><BR/>DannyDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06902866803320048942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-59686660520481792382008-08-28T14:18:00.000-04:002008-08-28T14:18:00.000-04:00Hi Danny,Thank you for the additional points. Com...Hi Danny,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the additional points. Compression level is indeed a crucial factor for aging pu'er evenly.<BR/><BR/>-------------------<BR/>On the subject of wine aging (which is off-topic here -- my apologies for bringing it up in the first place), I believe the answer to whether or not wine ages once it's bottled is: <B>it depends on the type of closure and temperature</B>. Broadly speaking, wine ages, matures and then degrades over time through oxidation. Corks made from tree bark (traditional corks) allow minuscule amount of air to seep through the pores on the corks' cellular level.<BR/><BR/>Temperature also plays a role. The higher the temperature (there is a recommended range for proper storage), the faster a wine ages. Too high of a temperature, however, will "cook" a wine, and the result will be an off-balanced and faulty wine. Ever ordered a bottle of wine at a restaurant and the bottle came to the table too warm? Most likely it's been stored this way for some time, perhaps stacked in a milk cart next to the kitchen stove or the fridge's exhaust vent. These wines tend to taste stewed, even when it's cooled down later.<BR/>-------------------<BR/><BR/>Going back to the subject of Chang Tai teas, when you said some undergone a slight <I>"pre-processing fermentation"</I>, did you mean fermentation as in the process of creating cooked pu'er or as in partial oxidation?<BR/><BR/>I hope I'm not testing your patience with my endless questions. I'm here to learn from you.<BR/><BR/>Humbly,<BR/><BR/>Phyll~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-41863345361054647762008-08-28T06:11:00.000-04:002008-08-28T06:11:00.000-04:00Hi Phyll,I'm not familiar with wine and its storag...Hi Phyll,<BR/><BR/>I'm not familiar with wine and its storage, from the little that I know, once the wine is bottled, it essentially does not age anymore - for most wines, that is. When you mention storing wine in a cellar on higher temperature than the usual recommendation, is this done by the cellar owners themselves?<BR/><BR/>Humidity and temperature are two crucial factors to puer ageing, if you wish to speed age your collection, these would be the two factors you might want to experiment on. My guess (GUESS!) is that if you raise the humidity level to 80 with a temperature between 86-90'F, you will probably get to speed age puer.<BR/><BR/>Rereading the previous reply, I realize I have failed to mention two crucial points: one, you have to consider the pressing method of the puer. There are vendors who speed age puer by themselves and sell these off as aged puer. What happened when they speed age the puer was that the outer leaves were aged, but the inside of the cake was green, these usually happened to cakes that were tightly pressed. If you choose to speed age your collection, do check on the pressing of the cakes first, or you might wish to break up the cakes to ensure a more thorough process.<BR/>Second, if you have two pieces of the same puer, you subject one to speed ageing and the other you leave it to age on its own, what you get at the end might be two different tasting puer. With speed ageing, there is a potential danger of pushing the tea towards becoming cooked...<BR/><BR/>DannyDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06902866803320048942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-9572470817715242272008-08-27T19:09:00.000-04:002008-08-27T19:09:00.000-04:00Hello Danny,My utmost thanks for your time to prov...Hello Danny,<BR/><BR/>My utmost thanks for your time to provide a thoughtful response to my rather hastily written comment / inquiry.<BR/><BR/>You said: <I>"Several of puer from Chang Tai in 2004-2005 have undergone slight pre-processing fermentation;"</I><BR/><BR/>[Edited by Phyll]: Does this apply to some pu'er in Chang Tai product line only, or also with the Yi Chang Hao product line? Any specific ones you know of? I'm curious.<BR/><BR/>I think my comment was based on common sense for wine buying and storing: we have to shape our buying decisions by factoring how old we are. One does not live forever, and so if a person of [advanced] age expects to enjoy, say, the recently acquired 2005 top vintage Bordeaux in his/her lifetime, these wines better be stored in a warmer cellar in order to encourage a more rapid aging, as opposed to the traditionally recommended 50-55'F average.<BR/><BR/>Then again, wine storage seems to be a much less complex issue than proper pu'er storage.<BR/><BR/>Thank you again.<BR/><BR/>~Phyll~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-25020231794991524452008-08-26T15:39:00.000-04:002008-08-26T15:39:00.000-04:00[EDITOR'S NOTE: here is danny's response to phyll....[EDITOR'S NOTE: <I>here is danny's response to phyll.</I>]<BR/><BR/>Hi Phyll, thank you for your comment. I'd like to reply to your comment that the "When" is not raised often in discussion on puer storage. The "When" is intrinsically linked with the "What, Where, How and Why", not spoken, but it is always hovering in the shadow...<BR/><BR/>What kind of puer you are looking for, how is the puer processed, where is the puer stored, and why are you buying that piece of puer, define When you want to drink it.<BR/><BR/>If you buy a cooked puer, you can drink it now. If you buy a brassy, harsh on the tongue raw puer, you will have to chuck it side and let it age before you can return to it and see how it ages. If the puer is stored in Hong Kong in a humidity and temperature controlled warehouse to speed up its ageing, you can drink it now, if has been kept in Kunming or an arid place, you'll have to age it for some time before you can drink it. If the puer was processed in the manner of a green tea using a higher heat to dry the tea, its ageing potential may be decreased and you'll probably want to drink it within five years, but if it dried nicely with warm heat, it'll probably retain its ageing potential and you can age it further. If the processing methods are correct, a puer using more plantation leaves might need a longer period to mellow than one using leaves from old arbors or wild grown ... (ever read of comments from tea experts that "this tea is harsh now, but it will get better in 10 years' time"? Or wonder the reason why 80s Menghai factory puer are tasty only now? - most of them were plantation leaves ... and it is from these puers that old tea lovers concluded that puer must be aged for a long time before it becomes mellow and nice!)<BR/><BR/>If you wish to have a puer that is really enjoyable now, and will probably turn much better in a couple of years' time, puer made from old arbors in disused old plantations or wild grown leaves might be what you should target on. Leaves from these trees 'age' faster than those from cultivated plantations. Another type of puer you might wish to look at is one which has undergone a slight fermentation prior to processing. Bottom line, you have to know your tea.<BR/><BR/>Several of puer from Chang Tai in 2004-2005 have undergone slight pre-processing fermentation; the tea was young back then, but the liquor was rich orange with hint of age. Curiously as the tea ages, the colour cut back into gold but the flavours were increasingly improving. You might want to hunt for some of these, but they are not cheap. Puer between 2006-2007 has seen a massive and messy market, with factories cashing in on the tea and quality production flung out of the window. My caution is to buy less puer from these years unless you have sampled and really like it. Most puer from this period has also used plantation leaves, so the ageing potential might well be a long term investment.<BR/><BR/>While it seems practical to speed age your puer at home, the variables involved might not worth your time and effort, not to mention that there will be puer casualties.<BR/><BR/>All the best,<BR/>Dannycoraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03645573592247798140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16115542.post-81520404824367275302008-08-25T16:09:00.000-04:002008-08-25T16:09:00.000-04:00All excellent points, sirs! Thank you very much.F...All excellent points, sirs! Thank you very much.<BR/><BR/>From the perspective of an individual drinker (not a seller), there is perhaps one point that hasn't been discussed: our own age, as mortal men. The "When," so to speak. Or to put it in a question form: "<I>When</I> do you want to drink it?"<BR/><BR/>[The <I>"what, why, who, where and how"</I> have already been discussed in part 1 and 2]<BR/><BR/>Young people in their 20's or even 30's should not be concerned with a collection of young pu'er teas. They would expect, with luck, that they will still be around to enjoy their collection for many decades down the line (or is it <I>"up the line"</I>?).<BR/><BR/>However, suppose that I'm a middle-aged person (50-60) and would like to be able to consume my collection of rather young and supposedly GREAT pu'er in say, 5 - 10 years from now before I go kaput (doesn't give a hoot about handing tea down to ungrateful children).<BR/><BR/>The goal, of course, is to be able to consume the teas in question when they've become sufficiently mature.<BR/><BR/>Logically speaking, I should consider tweaking the storage condition through higher temperature and humidity levels to promote a faster aging process but perhaps stopping short of the levels for a wet-storage condition, right?<BR/><BR/>[Even more logical, perhaps, is to buy and drink already-aged teas, but that is beside the point here]<BR/><BR/>Any other factor(s) that helps promote a faster aging process beside temperature and humidity levels? Does anyone in this esteemed group of tea aficionados have any comment on the question of <I>"When"</I>?<BR/><BR/>The topic of pu'er storage and aging is anything but simple...<BR/><BR/>Thank you, as always.<BR/><BR/>~ Phyll~ Phyllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089209028096768776noreply@blogger.com